Seiko Building in Ginza Japan by timfranklinphotography

What is the difference between SII, TMI, and Seiko Epson Watch Movements?

Seiko Building in Ginza Japan by timfranklinphotography

There is a lot of confusion in the watch community about Seiko and Seiko-related watches and movements. Most of the confusion from the consumer level comes from how Seiko is a parent company and uses the same name in many of the companies in the group. Although not directly related, and not sharing the same management or facilities, anything produced or marketed by one of Seiko’s core companies or subsidiaries are considered to be affiliated with Seiko.

What is SII, TMI, Epson, etc?

To answer this, first let’s look at the Seiko Group conglomerate based in Tokyo, Japan. According to Investopedia: “A conglomerate is a corporation made up of a number of different, seemingly unrelated businesses. In a conglomerate, one company owns a controlling stake in a number of smaller companies which conduct business separately.

The Seiko Group is comprised of three core companies, each having various subsidiaries of their own:

  • Seiko Holdings Corporation aka Seiko is based in Ginza, Japan
  • SII aka Seiko Instruments Inc is based in Chiba, Japan
  • Seiko Epson Corp. is based in Suwa, Japan

Then this happened:

“On January 26, 2009, Seiko Holdings and Seiko Instruments announced that the two companies will be merged on October 1, 2009 through a share swap. Seiko Instruments became a wholly owned subsidiary of Seiko Holdings on October 1, 2009.” –source

What is SII O?

You may have seen an laser etching on your watch movement that looks like this: SII O*, for example on this caliber PC33A:

Sii O Logo Seiko

The SII is for Seiko Instruments Inc., and the O with a dot towards the top right corner is actually the SII logo. It looks like a planet with a moon. Perhaps it would have been less confusing if they made the ⚫ solid instead of a hollow O. See the official logo below:

Seiko Instruments Logo Sii O

According to the Seiko Instruments official company timeline, they this logo was created as the corporate brand name in 1989, and was adopted as the official acronym of Seiko Instruments Inc.

What about TMI?

Of course fans of the caliber NH35A cannot forget about Time Module, Inc. which is based in Hong Kong.

In TMI’s own words:

“We are a subsidiary of the Seiko Group Corporation. In the name of Time Module (TMI), we sell a wide range of watch movements manufactured by the Group factories to all over the world. With decades of know-how and relentless pursuit of precision, craftsmanship and innovation, we continue to evolve and widen our product line-up…”

This is from TMI:

“Time Module (H.K.) Ltd. was established in 1987 with original funds from Seiko Corporation, Seiko Instruments Inc. and Seiko Epson Corporation. Effective from 1st of December, 2015, Time Module (H.K.) Ltd. is wholly-owned by Seiko Holdings Group, and is dedicated to offering high quality watch movements manufactured by Seiko Instruments Inc..”

Wait, Epson?! Don’t they make printers?

From Wikipedia (link):

The roots of Seiko Epson Corporation go back to a company called Daiwa Kogyo, Ltd. which was founded in 1942 by Hisao Yamazaki, a local clock shop owner and former employee of K. Hattori, in Suwa, Nagano, Japan. Daiwa Kogyo was supported by an investment from the Hattori family (founder of the Seiko Group) and began as a manufacturer of watch parts for Daini Seikosha (currently Seiko Instruments). The company started operation in a 2,500-square-foot (230 m2) renovated miso storehouse with 22 employees.

In 1943, Daini Seikosha established a factory in Suwa for manufacturing Seiko watches with Daiwa Kogyo. In 1959, the Suwa Factory of Daini Seikosha was split up and merged into Daiwa Kogyo to form Suwa Seikosha Co., Ltd: the forerunner of the Seiko Epson Corporation. The company has developed many timepiece technologies. In particular, it developed the world’s first portable quartz timer (Seiko QC-951) in 1963, the world’s first quartz watch (Seiko Quartz Astron 35SQ) in 1969, the first automatic power generating quartz watch (Seiko Auto-Quartz) in 1988 and the Spring Drive watch movement in 1999.

The watch business is the root of the company’s micromechatronics technologies and still one of the major businesses for Seiko Epson today although it accounts for less than one-tenth of total revenues. The watches made by the company are sold through the Seiko Watch Corporation, a subsidiary of Seiko Holdings Corporation.

In 2009, the company became fully owner of Orient Watch Co., Ltd., the one of the largest timepiece manufacturers in Japan.

Also how the businesses are grouped:

Seiko Group is a Japanese corporate group consisting of three core companies Seiko Holdings Corp. (Seiko), Seiko Instruments Inc. (SII) and Seiko Epson Corp (Epson). They were independent companies linked together by the common thread of timepiece technology. Although they have some common shareholders including the key members of the Hattori family, the three companies in the Seiko Group are not affiliated. They are managed and operated completely independently. Epson has established its own brand image and rarely uses “Seiko.”

This excerpt mentions that the three companies are not affiliated, which may be true in a technical business sense, but not in the eyes of the consumer who learns that the three companies are ultimately owned by Seiko.

Seiko Watch Corp adds to the confusion:

“Seiko Watch Corp., a subsidiary of Seiko Holdings Corp., markets SEIKO watches while Seiko Instruments Inc. and Seiko Epson Corp. manufacture their movements.” –source

Hattori Seiko Co., Ltd.

You may have also seen some Seiko calibers sold with the name Hattori. This is not only the last name of the founder of Seiko Kintaro Hattori, but also used as a label for movements sold by some resellers. We’re still actively researching this subsidiary and will update this post with more information later.

Are SII/TMI/Epson movements made in Japan?

No. Not all Seiko movements are made in Japan. Seiko calibers are made in Japan, Malaysia, and Singapore. They also manufacture watch parts and components in China, which are then used to assemble movements in the aforementioned locations with a mixture of human-made, machine-made, and part human part machine made. As it turns out, few Seiko watches are actually entirely made in Japan.

From Wikipedia:

“Seiko is perhaps best known for its wristwatches, all of which were at one time produced entirely in-house. This includes not only major items such as microgears, motors, hands, crystal oscillators, batteries, sensors, LCDs but also minor items such as the oils used in lubricating the watches and the luminous compounds used on the hands and the dials. Seiko watches were originally produced by two different subsidiaries. One was Diani Seikosha Co., (now known as Seiko Instruments Inc.), and the other was Suwa Seikosha Co. (now known as Seiko Epson Corporation). Having two companies both producing the same brand of watch enabled Seiko to improve technology through competition and hedge risk. It also reduced risk of production problems, since one company can increase production in the case of decreased production in the other party.

Currently watch movements are made in Shizukuishi, Iwate (SII Morioka Seiko Instruments), Ninohe, Iwate (SII Ninohe Tokei Kogyo), Shiojiri, Nagano (Seiko Epson) and their subsidiaries in China, Malaysia and Singapore. The fully integrated in-house production system is still practiced for luxury watches in Japan.”

From jayhall0315:

“…..due to the nature of customs and labor laws in Japan, products are generally allowed to be stamped with Made in Japan if they are produced outside the national boundaries as long as they are manufactured in a wholly owned Japanese firm where the work is overseen by Japanese nationals. Generally speaking, watches priced below about 90000 yen (currently $838 US dollars) do not contain enough profit margin to be made in Japan. This is not just for Seiko, but for all major Japanese manufacturers. Watches priced roughly from 90000 to 250000 yen (currently $838 to 2328 US dollars) are often finished or with final assembly done in Japan and higher end watches above this point are often fully assembled in Japan. …..”

Example of a Seiko Time Corp caliber 7S26C made in Malaysia:

Seiko caliber 7S26C made in Malaysia

Are Orient Watches Made By Seiko?

Orient is a Japan-based watch brand that started as an independent brand in 1950. In March 2009, Orient Watch became a wholly-owned subsidiary of Seiko Epson. Seiko Epson’s parent company is Seiko Group. So ask yourself, are Orient watches made by Seiko?

Update 1/20/20:

Seiko published a press-release announcing that Seiko Instruments will merge with Seiko Watch Corporation starting April, 2, 2020.

“Both SWC (Seiko Watch Corporation) and SII (Seiko Instruments, Inc.) are wholly owned subsidiaries of Seiko Holdings Corporation. SWC operates the watch business from planning to sales centering on the Grand Seiko and Seiko brands, and SII operates the manufacturing of mainly mechanical watches. With the organizational unification, SWC will now supervise the watch manufacturing operations and facilities currently under SII and will promote rapid decision-making and aim at accelerating the expansion and profitability of the watch business.” –source

UPDATE #2:

Time Module Inc. (TMI) has updated their About Us page with the following:

“Entering a new era, we have changed the product marking to “TMI” since 2020 to unify it with the company’s trade name and strengthen the brand recognition of TMI movements. In order to satisfy the market demand, we will strive continuously to provide stable and high-quality products and services to global customers.” -TMI

After many years of movements being signed “SII” for Seiko Instruments Inc., it appears that as the Seiko brand has continued to gain traction in the watch industry, they are moving their main name away from the wholesale side of the business and distancing themselves from the movements that are made for non-Seiko branded watches.  When SII started making movements available to outside brands, the landscape of the watch industry – as well as respect for Seiko – was in a different place. Therefore, creating a distinction (and totally different name) for the movements may be a smart move, as microbrands and other wholesale customers also gain market share – the use of Seiko movements in their watches could cause confusion against their own watch brand in the future.

Not to mention, TMI being a Hong Kong company with offices in India, gives the conglomerate more separation and leeway for producing watch movements outside of Japan (Malaysia, China, India, and anywhere else they can secure cheap labor compared to Japan).

The real question is: are TMI movements the same as Seiko movements? What we know is that TMI is a subsidiary of Seiko Group Corporation.

According to Investopedia:

“A subsidiary is a company that is owned by another company. The owning company, which is called the parent or holding company, usually owns more than 50% of its voting stock (it can be half plus one share more) of the subsidiary. ” –Source

So movements made by TMI are technically made by Seiko. We also know that they are based on the same designs, although some specs may vary.

What we don’t know is exactly where all TMI branded movements are made – they literally produce them without a country of origin, which in the world of watch movements comes across as sketchy to say the least (in fact, in some markets, it’s actually a legal requirement to have the country of origin stamped on the movement). So, it depends on how you look at it – and unfortunately there are important questions that will be difficult to answer, such as are all of the TMI movements made in Seiko owned factories or TMI outsourced factories?

Seiko is based in Japan. TMI is based in Hong Kong. Are they making TMI movements there? Are they making parts in China and shipping them to other countries for assembly? Are they Seiko owned parts factories shipping to Seiko owned assembly factories? This may not be important to everyone, and there’s nothing wrong with movements made all over the world, but the lack of transparency around the country of origin leads to misleading marketing such as brands selling their NH35 powered watches (and China-based movement resellers) as made in Japan.

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h. gelders
h. gelders
6 years ago

Seiko movements are like Eta’s: 1 basic movement of which nearly all others o.t. brand are slightly diversified each time a ‘new’ movement is occuring or has occured.
I am a watchmaker, pupil o.t. late watch’master’maker himself, George Daniels OBE, so I know/am for 100% sure this is true.

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5 years ago

[…] Originally Posted by Bughead …it leads back to Seiko. More info about that here: What is the difference between SII, TMI, and Seiko Epson Watch Movements? References From WUS Members: KeepTheTime are fabulous | KeepTheTime is a great […]

Onüth SHA
Onüth SHA
5 years ago

Thanks a lot for clarifying once and for all the myth of “Made in Japan” regarding Seiko watches… I kill and laugh myself every time when I see people believing that a SKX or Seiko 5 even stamped with mention Made in Japan is really made in Japan. With the price the watches are sold less than 100 USD, come on people get yourself into real…! Yeah you have Japanese quality, finish and control but let’s make it clear those watches never saw a inch of Japan territory for sure. Nice article, clear and explicit…!

Kamil
Kamil
5 years ago
Reply to  Onüth SHA

And how about the sbdc051 and the sbdc053 models, both signed made in Japan? What’ś your opinion about their provenance?

Nathan Chisholm
Nathan Chisholm
3 years ago
Reply to  Onüth SHA

If it says made in Japan it is end off story! I’ve never seen a JDM watch for $100

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Dolly
Dolly
4 years ago

Let me clarify what is TMI and SII. SII stands for Seiko Instruments Inc (in the Seiko Holdings Group), which is the manufacturer making movements marked with “SII” logo. TMI stands for Time Module. In the past, it was the name of the company selling movements manufactured by SII and Epson. Now the company is merged to Seiko Instruments, selling only “SII” movements. “TMI movement” to some extent is equivalent to “SII movement” now. Hope it helps.

PeterB
PeterB
3 years ago
Reply to  Dolly

Whenever I see calibers that include SII or TMI, I view them to be Seiko movements.

PeterB
PeterB
3 years ago
Reply to  PeterB

…but perhaps I should revise my thinking to be simply… “Japanese movement.”

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4 years ago

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Alisa
Alisa
4 years ago

Seiko Epson Corporation is another company! It has nothing to do with Seiko Instruments! Just like s.epson calibers are made by Epson, not by Seiko. Epson supplies semiconductors and mechanisms to other manufacturers. Also Orient entered Epson in 2017.
Please check information. I understand that everyone is confused between Seiko and Epson, but please check the information.
https://global.epson.com/newsroom/2016/news_20160906.html

Felicia
Felicia
4 years ago
Reply to  Alisa

Nice job. So basically it’s all Seiko. This just shows how big Seiko really is!

DOUGLAS HAMNER
DOUGLAS HAMNER
3 years ago
Reply to  Alisa

The Orient movements are just upgraded Seiko Suwa 6000 series movements. All new entry level Seiko movements (7S/4R/6R)are upgraded 7000 series Daini movements

Robert L
Robert L
3 years ago

Since this article makes no reference to SII, TMI, & Epson, regarding movement “quality,” can it be assumed that such a comparative review is unavailable?

PeterB
PeterB
3 years ago
Reply to  Robert L

With respects to automatic movements, the primary difference is likely to be in power reserve ratings, however accuracy may be a distinguishing characteristic of those movements, as well. I am not aware of any published articles on how they compare. With respect to their quartz movements, I would be surprised if accuracy and durability are not substantially the same between them.

Mike Hess
Mike Hess
3 years ago

So does that the biggest difference between SII and TMI is location of the company? Because I thought TMI and SII both produced the NH 35 A model movement??

Stuart
Stuart
2 years ago
Reply to  Mike Hess

TMI was the sales and marketing arm of SII movements until recently. TMI, which still serving as a sales and marketing group, is now a part of the Seiko Watch Company. Recently Seiko has been merging several of their divisions, in particular for their watch business. It’s all a bit complicated from an org chart perspective, but the important thing to remember is that they are all Seiko.

Wibowo PR
Wibowo PR
2 years ago
Reply to  Mike Hess

based on the 2021 product catalog, there will be no more “SII” label on the “hattori” movement

all movements made by Seiko Instrument Inc (SII) in Japan and Seiko Manufacturing outside Japan that are not fitted on Seiko and its relatives watches, are labeled with the “TMI” trademark

it will be the same as the Miyota by Citizen : TMI by Seiko, while Epson still stands with its own trademark

it seems that Seiko is trying to answer the confusion that has been going on all this time

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Arnaldo
Arnaldo
2 years ago

Bom dia, estou precisando dos ponteiros da Maquina VX32

Visteo
Visteo
2 years ago

Obviously this article has confused as much as clarify matters. In the United States there are laws that govern the use of the words ‘Made in’. You cannot completely manufacture an item in China with foreign supervision and stamp anything, but “Made in China” on that item. This includes watches. To do otherwise will incur the wrath of fines, penalties and sanctions on that company guilty of such practices. Hope this clarifies things for those who live in the US.

h. gelders
h. gelders
2 years ago
Reply to  Visteo

Yep Visteo, you are quite right(eous) in your clarifying statement(s). In Europe, ‘made in …’ is strictly related to the manufacturing plant and their country of origin and has been perpetuated as such since 1885. After all, the first watch brands and plants were in Europe. Particularly in the UK, France, Germany and then Switzerland. Now all EU-countries are manufacturing watches, indeed.

Rick
Rick
2 years ago

I just purchased an Orient Kamasu off Amazon, it was stamped Epson on the back.

Monico Rabara
Monico Rabara
2 years ago

Thank You!
Well written and Very informative article.

Alex Leonhardt
Alex Leonhardt
2 years ago

I have a Breitling cosmo 2400 I finally managed to get it working it also has a broken UTC module . I need the movement it’s stamped 81490 on the steel back . Can you supply the movement and gasket ? Thanks for your help Alex !

Dash
Dash
2 years ago

With the current shortage of NH35 movements I would like to see a specs comparison between the NH35 and YN55

HoustonReal
HoustonReal
2 years ago
Reply to  Dash

The YN55A has only 22 jewels vs 24 jewels in an NH35A, and the power reserve is slightly lower at 40 hours, instead of “more than 41 hours” for the NH35A.

WST
WST
2 years ago
Reply to  HoustonReal

Indeed. I have watches with both movements and the power reserve I measured is 45.5 h for NH35 (in PD-1645) and 43.5 h for NH55 (in Orient Kamasu).

Nontawit Jitteimate
Nontawit Jitteimate
2 years ago

NH36A. TMI Made in…..?

Josh Hobbs
Josh Hobbs
10 months ago

Malaysia

Josh Hobbs
Josh Hobbs
6 months ago
Reply to  Josh Hobbs

Or Hong Kong I believe

Zulsyahrial
Zulsyahrial
2 years ago

But one, the NH 35A ​​is a good movement for the price it’s also very popular

HoustonReal
HoustonReal
2 years ago

The NH35A is part of TMI’s Basic Movement line. (21,600 vph)
The 9015 is a member of Miyota’s Premium series. (28,800 vph)

The Miyota 8215 is the closest competition to the NH35A. The new Miyota 8315 is decorated, and has an 18+ hour longer Power Reserve,

The Miyota 9015 competes with Chinese and Swiss, ETA 2824-2 clones, and the Seiko 6R35 (TMI NE35).

You are comparing apples and oranges.

Bramley02
Bramley02
2 years ago

As of 2021, the “Made in Japan” has been blended in with one more layer of meaning of “Made in Japan with Radiations”.

Roy Benny
Roy Benny
2 years ago

I love looking online for an answer and being overwhelmed with relevant information that makes me more education beyond even my original questions. I am overjoyed to find this page and this site in general. Thank you!

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2 years ago

[…] What is the difference between SII, TMI, and Seiko Epson Watch Movements? […]

Wibowo PR
Wibowo PR
2 years ago

starting in 2020, there will be no more “SII” label on the “hattori” movement

as far as I know, all will be labeled with the TMI trademark, this includes all movements made by Seiko Instrument Inc (SII) in Japan and Seiko Manufacturing outside Japan

exceptions to movements fitted to the watches of Seiko and its relatives, including movements made by Epson

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torisugari
torisugari
1 year ago

“due to the nature of customs and labor laws in Japan, products are generally allowed to be stamped with Made in Japan if they are produced outside the national boundaries as long as they are manufactured in a wholly owned Japanese firm where the work is overseen by Japanese nationals”

This is absolutely not true. At least in Japan, such a product cannot be sold as “Made in Japan.” There are administrative measures and, ultimately criminal penalties against such business practices. Foreign-made products that are only “packaged” and/or “inspected” in Japan also cannot be considered “Made in Japan.”

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